The Icon Bar: General: Autostart
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LeoKulcar (01:26 24/3/2013)
swirlythingy (01:36 24/3/2013)
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swirlythingy (13:04 24/3/2013)
LeoKulcar (01:07 25/3/2013)
filecore (06:17 25/3/2013)
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MEmerton (01:11 26/3/2013)
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Leo Kulcar |
Message #122106, posted by LeoKulcar at 01:26, 24/3/2013 |
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Posts: 6
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Using Arculator I was happy to find a way how to install a game to the hard disk (actualy, it's just 'FS' subfolder, and that's fine). After some time I just ask myself 'Is it really necessary to start a game manually each time?'. So is there a way to start a game automatically? Just to start Arculator and without do anything (like clicking at the game icon) boot straight to the game. |
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Martin Bazley |
Message #122107, posted by swirlythingy at 01:36, 24/3/2013, in reply to message #122106 |
Posts: 460
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You sound like you're new to RISC OS. Assuming the version you have installed is 3.1, and additionally assuming you have New Boot installed, you can do this by editing the Desktop file. Don't understand what I just said? That means you're jumping in way too deep for a newbie, and should stick to double-clicking on the game like everyone else.
In any case, once you've got the system set up to run the game every time you turn it on, you'll only regret it later and come running back here asking how to make it stop. |
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Leo Kulcar |
Message #122108, posted by LeoKulcar at 02:10, 24/3/2013, in reply to message #122107 |
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Thanks for replaying so quickly to my question, I really appreciate that. Yes, I am pretty new to RISC OS (unfortunately). At the boot it just says 'RISC OS 3 Acorn Computers Ltd, 1992'. And, I can't edit the Desktop file, becouse I can't find it. There is nothing on the hard disk ('FC' dir of the Arculator) except the folder of that one installed game. Where I can find example of 'Desktop file'? Or how I can create one? And where to put it? I the root?
And don't worry, I am not that stupid to stuck with that one game booting every time and won't be able to use anything else. As I said, it's just Arculator. I want to make one copy of it with just that one game autostarting each time. This suppose to be emulation of just one game, nothing else, nothing more.
[Edited by LeoKulcar at 02:11, 24/3/2013] |
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Martin Bazley |
Message #122113, posted by swirlythingy at 13:04, 24/3/2013, in reply to message #122108 |
Posts: 460
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It appears as if you do not have New Boot - or, indeed, any boot - installed after all. That makes things at once simpler and more complicated.
You can use !Edit (Apps icon) to create a file in the root of the hard disc called '!Boot'. This should contain (roughly) the following:
Run ADFS::HardDisc4.$.!GameName
Where everything after "Run " is obviously dependent on your setup. (Hint: you should be able to insert the filename of the game directory at the cursor automatically by Shift-dragging it into Edit's window.)
After saving the file, set its type to Desktop.
(These instructions are deliberately incomplete, to encourage you to explore RISC OS and find things out for yourself. It's quite the nicest desktop I've ever used, but unfortunately it mainly accomplishes this by being utterly unlike Windows and the army of free Windows clones for Linux, which gives it a quite steep learning curve for newbies.) |
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Leo Kulcar |
Message #122117, posted by LeoKulcar at 01:07, 25/3/2013, in reply to message #122113 |
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Uh, don't work so far.
"FS" folder of Arculator acting as the Hard disk.
It's nothing there except one game (Lemmings 2, if this matters)
Game is not in the directory any more, it's on the root of the disk.
There are: !Boot,feb (I suppose ",feb" is Arculator's substitute for the file attributes)
!Run,feb (some script file)
!Help,fff
!Sprites,ff9
!RunImage,ff8
"!" representing executable file (am I right?)
......and lots of other (non-executable) files
I think "!Help,fff" doesn't matter. "!Sprites,ff9" and "!RunImage,ff8" are binary files.
So, two files are remaining "!Boot,feb" and "!Run,feb".
Contents of "!Boot,feb" doesn't look like it can start anything here (maybe it's here just as a copy of the game floppy contents).
If I start Arculator like that nothing happens. If I remove "!Boot,feb" and rename "!Run,feb" to "!Boot,feb" then when I click on the Hard disk icon the game starts, but not properly (mouse pointer changes to hourglass and remain like that. Doesn't matter of it's appearance, mouse pointer can be used in the game, but that's look stupid.
So, it's still not automatic enough and mouse pointer 'have issues'.
If you are really that kind to help me, let's remember I working with the emulator. I can create script file with some editor outside of the emulator (or even edit binary files with hex editor). 'UltraEdit' is very good in creating/converting suitable files for different systems. I can copy files or create directories from the Windows. So we can skip the part 'how to do this with RISC OS'. Right now I don't have a way to work with real Archimedes anyway.
I just need information (or example) what to create and where to put the file. Nothing can't go wrong. Whole environment is just a copy of few megabytes. I can try whatever may work the best (no matter how uncommon or stupid in normal Archimedes environment it is).
At the end I want to have a package similar to GOG releases. Something that can be used from the Windows just like it is a native program.
I doing this for years with various emulators of many different systems: PC-DOS, Atari ST, Amiga, CD32, SNES, Mega Drive/Genesis, FM Towns, C-64, MAME... and few others (more or less successfully). I can't learn everything of all the systems. I doing from the emulated system just what is really necessery. Anything that can be done outside I doing that way. Problem with Arculator is a lack of the save-state function, so I need a way to autostart the game.
[Edited by LeoKulcar at 01:11, 25/3/2013] |
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Jason Togneri |
Message #122119, posted by filecore at 06:17, 25/3/2013, in reply to message #122117 |
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Game is not in the directory any more, it's on the root of the disk. It doesn't matter where it is. RISC OS is agnostic about file location. Each application is self-contained; there is no Registry or equivalent.
There are: !Boot,feb (I suppose ",feb" is Arculator's substitute for the file attributes)
!Run,feb (some script file)
!Help,fff
!Sprites,ff9
!RunImage,ff8 All of these ,xxx extensions are filetype attributes appended by the host OS. When it does this, it's the only way it knows to preserve these - but RISC OS can't read these. It's looking for a file called !Boot or !Sprites and can't see a matching filename. You need to remove these ,xxx attribute extension from every single file and then, through the context menus, set the corresponding filetype attributes in RISC OS.
I think "!Help,fff" doesn't matter. "!Sprites,ff9" and "!RunImage,ff8" are binary files.
So, two files are remaining "!Boot,feb" and "!Run,feb".
Contents of "!Boot,feb" doesn't look like it can start anything here (maybe it's here just as a copy of the game floppy contents). "!" representing executable file (am I right?) Yes, you are broadly right. Applications in RISC OS are just magical directories that store files. The only difference between Folder and !Folder is that the first will open when double-clicked, and the latter will launch a !Run or !RunImage which it contains when double-clicked. Shift double-clicking opens an applciation directory as if it were a normal directory.
Refering to what Martin said above, it seems like you do indeed have a !Boot structure on this machine. However, the machine can't see it because it has an irregular filename. You really need to fix all those filetype attributes as a first step towards functionality. This might help.
[Edited by filecore at 06:35, 26/3/2013] |
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Martin Bazley |
Message #122123, posted by swirlythingy at 14:26, 25/3/2013, in reply to message #122117 |
Posts: 460
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Ignore what Jason said, I don't think he understood your post (or at least not as I understood it).
EDIT: On second thoughts, what did you say? I'm having doubts now. Your first few sentences are open to multiple interpretations. When you click on the hard disc icon inside the emulator (assuming you've undone all of your !Boot/!Run hacks), can you describe exactly what you see? I took you post to mean that the root contained !Boot, !Run, !Help, etc. since you said 'not in the directory any more' and the only directory you could have been referring to is the !Lemmings2 directory. On the other hand, your later paragraph about renaming !Run to !Boot appears to contradict that.
The fact remains that I have already explained how you can create a !Boot file which will run the game on startup, but AFAICT from your (rather garbled) post, you haven't even attempted to follow my instructions.
(rest of post struck through pending clarification)
Game is not in the directory any more, it's on the root of the disk. Well there's yer problem!
What on earth possessed you to do that? Put it straight back in its directory this instant.
Applications are distributed as directories on RISC OS. This is normal. This is specifically to hide away the files called !Boot, !Run, etc. under a single icon, which can be double-clicked on. Installation of applications is therefore just a simple drag-and-drop of (in this case) the !Lemmings2 directory from wherever you got it from onto the hard disc.
Since you've managed to screw up this badly already, I strongly advise you to RTFM before attempting to proceed further.
There are: !Boot,feb (I suppose ",feb" is Arculator's substitute for the file attributes) Filetypes are stored as 12-bit-wide metadata, internal to RISC OS's native disc format. Arculator emulates this on the host OS side by appending the metadata to each filename, ensuring that this hack remains invisible to RISC OS.
By the way, I hope you are smart enough to have already worked out exactly why the mistake you have made is preventing you from running the game on startup.
I told you to create a file of type 'Desktop' (&FEA) called !Boot in the root of the hard disc. Unfortunately, there's a naming clash. RISC OS will run any file it finds in the root called '!Boot', and it just so happens that the !Lemmings2 application directory also contained a file named !Boot.
Get all those files back into the !Lemmings2 application directory immediately!
!Run,feb (some script file) This is the file which is executed when you double-click on the !Lemmings2 directory.
!Help,fff This is loaded when you select 'Help' from the RISC OS Filer's menu with !Lemmings2 selected.
!Sprites,ff9 This contains the !Lemmings2 icon (a small version of the orange logo), in the RISC OS native image format.
!RunImage,ff8 No special meaning, but conventionally used to hold the main application code.
"!" representing executable file (am I right?) No, you're not. The only time '!' has any special meaning is at the start of a directory name, where it distinguishes applications from directories. The only filenames in application directories with special meanings are !Boot, !Help, !Run and !Sprites.
!Boot is a script file which is executed whenever you open the directory containing the application directory, which performs small tasks like ensuring the application's icon is loaded properly. It is not at all the same thing as !Boot in the root of the hard disc, but has the same name. So you'll have to move it somewhere else - like, say, inside the goddamn application directory - before you can write your own !Boot file.
If you are really that kind to help me, let's remember I working with the emulator. I can create script file with some editor outside of the emulator (or even edit binary files with hex editor). 'UltraEdit' is very good in creating/converting suitable files for different systems. I can copy files or create directories from the Windows. So we can skip the part 'how to do this with RISC OS'. That kind of attitude will get you no sympathy. I explained one way you could do it. The onus is on you to work out how this could be extended to your preferred work environment.
Right now I don't have a way to work with real Archimedes anyway. Irrelevant.
I just need information (or example) what to create and where to put the file. ...Which you have already been given.
I can't learn everything of all the systems. The task you have asked how to do is a relatively complicated one. If you were hoping for a free lunch, forget it.
I doing from the emulated system just what is really necessery. Anything that can be done outside I doing that way. That's your problem, not mine.
[Edited by swirlythingy at 14:39, 25/3/2013] |
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Michael Emerton |
Message #122124, posted by MEmerton at 17:10, 25/3/2013, in reply to message #122113 |
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Posts: 75
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I cannot get Arculator to boot from ArculFS, I keep getting this from the emulator:
Bad FSEntry_Func call 6 0000000A 00000008 00000000 00000000
using:
*con. filesystem ArculFS
*con. boot
emulator reboot |
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Tom Walker |
Message #122125, posted by TomWalker at 18:29, 25/3/2013, in reply to message #122124 |
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Posts: 25
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ArculFS doesn't support booting, among (many) other things. |
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Martin Bazley |
Message #122127, posted by swirlythingy at 19:53, 25/3/2013, in reply to message #122125 |
Posts: 460
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I've never used Arculator myself, but if that's going to be a problem, the OP might want to try ArcEm. |
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Leo Kulcar |
Message #122130, posted by LeoKulcar at 00:30, 26/3/2013, in reply to message #122127 |
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Posts: 6
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Ah Martin Bazley, now you told me you never used Arculator... Doesn't matter, anyway, I doing all this just for the fun. And it's nice that you want to learn me how to work with RISC OS, but I was looking for the solution on the internet before, and some explained procedures, I was able to find, simply don't work with Arculator. That's why I was asking for as simple, as possible help.
Game in the root of the hard disk was just a try to make boot easier (I know it's stupid thing to do on the real machine).
Tom Walker, Arculator is great. Would be nice to have an option for save/load a snapshot position to the state file. And completely redefinable keyboard would be nice solution for the control mess within the Archimedes games. (Can't think of anything other to complain.)
But, Arculator is still great as it is now. Clean as possible, and easy to start using. |
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Michael Emerton |
Message #122131, posted by MEmerton at 01:11, 26/3/2013, in reply to message #122125 |
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Posts: 75
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ArculFS doesn't support booting, among (many) other things.
That'll be why then...  |
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Michael Emerton |
Message #122132, posted by MEmerton at 01:20, 26/3/2013, in reply to message #122130 |
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Posts: 75
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Ah Martin Bazley, now you told me you never used Arculator... Doesn't matter, anyway, I doing all this just for the fun. And it's nice that you want to learn me how to work with RISC OS, but I was looking for the solution on the internet before, and some explained procedures, I was able to find, simply don't work with Arculator. That's why I was asking for as simple, as possible help.
Game in the root of the hard disk was just a try to make boot easier (I know it's stupid thing to do on the real machine).
You could still make it run the game when you click on the ArculFS icon on the iconbar. So it is just a one click?
For that edit the !Boot file, at the end, to "Run" the !Run file within the Lemmings game? somethign like this:
Run <obey$dir>.!Run
shift-double click on the !Boot file to edit it. To enter the folder for the game from within Arculator, shift-double click again
F3 and enter, re-saves the file.
I do find that sometimes the 'help' on the Internet not to be as useful as it set's out to be, and sometimes, putting a simple "click here" and "edit this [] to this '' " to be more helpful for future users.
This is the way I learnt most of what I know. |
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Jason Togneri |
Message #122134, posted by filecore at 06:42, 26/3/2013, in reply to message #122123 |
Posts: 3868
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Ignore what Jason said, I don't think he understood your post (or at least not as I understood it). Game is not in the directory any more, it's on the root of the disk. Hmm, you may be right. If the OP has opened the !Lemmings2 directory and extracted the individual files onto the root of the HDD, this is incorrect. Those !Boot, !Run, !Sprites etc need to stay inside of the !Lemmings2 dir, while a directory structure also confusingly named !Boot needs to be in the root of the HDD. This is unrelated to the !Boot file inside of the Lemmings application. While I'm not entirely happy with Martin's typically RISC OS holier-than-thou attitude, I do also agree that the OP seems to have totally missed the point of how things are done in RISC OS, and from the point of view of RTFM, RISC OS of that era certainly does have some of the clearest documentation I've seen. It will be well worth looking through those manuals and getting a firmer grasp on the way the OS and UI works. It's like nothing you're familiar with, I can guarantee you that
[Edited by filecore at 06:43, 26/3/2013] |
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Jason Togneri |
Message #122135, posted by filecore at 06:48, 26/3/2013, in reply to message #122132 |
Posts: 3868
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I do find that sometimes the 'help' on the Internet not to be as useful as it set's out to be, and sometimes, putting a simple "click here" and "edit this [] to this '' " to be more helpful for future users.
This is the way I learnt most of what I know. Precisely this. After all, it's reading "go here, do this" articles in Acorn User magazine that taught me a lot of how to use RISC OS back in the day, and got me into programming in BASIC (old Yellow Pages articles, anyone?). While I don't think people should be entirely spoonfed, there's nothing wrong with providing them some of the guidance they clearly need.
And don't for a second think that this is going to stop. My most recent issue of Custom PC magazine had an extensive feature on the RPi, and they compared operating system alternatives. RISC OS came third out of four with 75% (behind Raspbian at 90% and RaspBMC at 80%, and ahead of FreeBSD at 60%). This will simply send more and more users towards these forums with equally simple questions and, having seen how this forum treats n00bs in the past, I expect a lot more sneering and RTFMs from the established members. |
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Leo Kulcar |
Message #122146, posted by LeoKulcar at 01:28, 27/3/2013, in reply to message #122132 |
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Michael Emerton, when I change contents of the "!Boot" to start "!Run" file, then what I have? (It is rhetorical question.) I have one script file starting other script file. I did it simpler (as I said before), deleted "!Boot" and renamed "!Run" to "!Boot". It works the same.
Anyway, I did it your way just to try how it works (the same of course).
Your explanation how to edit "!Boot" is simple and easy to understand (thanks), but... I don't need to type that text and save the file from the Archimedes side. I can simply copy your text from the internet browser, open "!Boot" with "UltraEdit" (from the Windows) and just paste text from the clipboard.
But, when I did what you said, there is still "issue" (the same one I encountered when I made changes my way) with the mouse pointer. When the game starts, pointer changes to hourglass and stay like that. Pointer can be used in the game, but I can't leave this like that and be happy.
So, when I did what you said, it works just the same as my root-placed-game-that-nobody-likes solution.
You guys are really willing to help and you are even nicer then I was expected, but you missing the point.
When you have the whole machine (emulated in this case) just for the one game, it's possible to use unusual ways (like, put the game in the root of the hard disk). Anyway, game directory don't have any purpose when nothing else is on the hard disk.
I have Amiga version of the same game 'packed' with UAE, and it's also in the root (and it's also unusual), but it works fine. To start that game it's enough to double-click the game (package) icon (from the Windows) and game starts the same second. To end the game it's enough to click on the 'Exit' button in the game menu, and that action close the game and UAE at the same time. It can be done thanks to small program able to terminate UAE from the (emulated) Amiga side. So, this (game-emulator) package is nothing but 'normal' game for the Windows user.
Of course, I can click on the icon inside the Arculator to start the game, that's not a problem, but my goal is to made emulation 'invisible', I like to call this 'stealth emulation'.
Obviously, I can't do this with Arculator (unless, Tom Walker take my cry seriously and make necessery changes). |
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Jason Togneri |
Message #122147, posted by filecore at 06:29, 27/3/2013, in reply to message #122146 |
Posts: 3868
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you missing the point. No, I think we understand well enough. You want a specific game to start automatically, in fullscreen mode, on boot. You want a games console, not a useable desktop OS.
Unfortunately I do understand the other side of this, which is that a) people will come to a RISC OS user forum not to learn, but to look for quick fixes, and b) they will not find useful general practices, but rather specific guidance to accomplish very specific (and, as you say, unusual) tasks. This won't be of much use for those who do wish to use RISC OS as a standard desktop.
Getting back to the first point, Martin's post from way back at the start of this thread already covered exactly what you ought to do to achieve this fullscreen, single-app functionality with adding a file to the !Boot structure containing Run ADFS::HardDisc4.$.!Lemmings2. Since !Boot is used for tasks which run on boot, this will obviously execute the !Lemmings2 app in the aforementioned location each time the system boots. |
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Leo Kulcar |
Message #122153, posted by LeoKulcar at 01:57, 28/3/2013, in reply to message #122147 |
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Jason Togneri, yes it was ask for quick help. Also, it was ask related to Arculator, not to real Archimedes (and it's obviously not the same think, that's the problem).
This will not help much to the people willing to learn how to work with RISC OS, I know. That's true. I am guilt as charged. Mea colpa.
Epilogue (if I may say something):
It is a shame that many of (once) great computers and operating systems are not in common use (and serious development) anymore. I am not very happy with this, and I was fighting against that as long, as it was possible (maybe even too long). Unfortunately, this was not a fair battle. Isn't it a good idea to at least preserve some old games? Certainly, it's not much, but it's better than nothing. And no, I don't think kids would be interested with old games much. Maybe some former Amiga or Atari ST users, not very familliar with Archimedes (like myself), will show some interest for RISC OS if they can quickly try some games made for it (that can show what hardware was capable for). Although, emulation is not obvious, I never hiding it is one. The best thing in all that is in the fact that it is emulation (yes, maybe a wierd one, but maybe even more interesting because of that).
There is not much sense in expectation that people will start to use any old computer these days, but if they look for some information what that was all about, it's not that bad at all.
Anyone who missed to work with some old systems in the past can try it now with a help of emulators (of course it's not quite the same thing). Amiga, Atari ST, FM Towns (that's a tough one, whole GUI is in Japanese), even old MS-DOS with DOSShell is surprisingly interesting thing. Also 'Final cartridge III' for C64/128 (GUI in the ROM module). I was using that one back in days, it was very nice.
OK, enough with talk unrelated to Archimedes. To quote Douglas Adams, "So long, and thanks for all the fish." (At least for now.) |
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Eric Rucker |
Message #122154, posted by bhtooefr at 10:37, 28/3/2013, in reply to message #122153 |
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Posts: 337
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I will note that Arculator does support hard drive images, so get yourself a small hard drive image (HD4.HDF - formatting is beyond the scope of this question, and there's preformatted ones out there, just make sure it's not formatted for RISC OS 4, and it's under 512 Mi . You can put a !Boot structure of some sort on that, instead of the ArculFS, and have it boot from ADFS. |
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