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The Icon Bar: General: Recently inherited an Archimedes 440 - What Do.
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Recently inherited an Archimedes 440 - What Do. |
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GreenyRepublic (00:03 15/6/2013)
swirlythingy (01:07 15/6/2013)
Zarchos (07:55 15/6/2013)
microbits (09:19 15/6/2013)
danielj (09:54 15/6/2013)
microbits (01:55 15/6/2013)
danielj (06:18 15/6/2013)
GreenyRepublic (09:59 15/6/2013)
arawnsley (11:05 15/6/2013)
microbits (13:14 15/6/2013)
apdl (11:25 16/6/2013)
PaulV (20:42 16/6/2013)
CJE (12:49 17/6/2013)
GreenyRepublic (15:48 17/6/2013)
sirbod (06:38 15/6/2013)
Zarchos (07:02 15/6/2013)
microbits (07:23 15/6/2013)
Zarchos (07:27 15/6/2013)
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Ben Clark |
Message #122421, posted by GreenyRepublic at 00:03, 15/6/2013 |
Member
Posts: 3
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Hey there everyone, just signed up on the forum after stumbling across the site whilst Google searching for some various bits on Archimedes/RISC OS usage. Very glad to be here, and I hope that I can be of service.
Anyhow, through my grandfather's generosity I recently came into the possession of an extremely well-kept Acorn Archimedes 440 (4mb RAM, 20MB HD with RISC OS 2.0), complete with monitor, keyboard, mouse, dot matrix printer and the original set of floppies and manuals, as well as some programs he wrote himself (programs for his Bridge club, various mathematical theorem calculators, an orbit simulator, and a game of Countdown).
This is of course all terribly exciting to me, and I was hoping to look into what I can do with this thing, one of my main hopes would be to perhaps upgrade the version of RISC OS installed on it currently to something like 3.1, and perhaps get some games running on it.
I recently bought myself some blank floppies and a USB floppy drive as I figured that I'd need them, only now I'm a little bit stuck as to how to proceed with things. From what I've read there's a complex formatting process involved in getting Archimedes software bootable by the actual system using a Windows PC. So I'll ask here: is there any comprehensive step-by-step process in getting Archimedes software prepped on a modern PC, or am I ultimately just stuck with the software I have? It'd be really great if I could get RISC OS 3.1 on this thing.
Any help would be hugely appreciated. My thanks in advance. |
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Martin Bazley |
Message #122422, posted by swirlythingy at 01:07, 15/6/2013, in reply to message #122421 |
Posts: 460
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OK. First, the basics:
According to this, RISC OS 2 can't read DOS format floppies. This means floppy discs as a method of transfer are out.
You could upgrade the machine to RISC OS 3.1, but to do that you'd need to source a new set of ROMs and fit them yourself. RO3.1 can read DOS floppies.
A440 hardware doesn't support high-density discs, so any format larger than 800KB is out.
USB floppy drives are physically unable to access Acorn formatted floppies (something technical to do with the sector numbering). I'm not sure if this means you would be unable to use one to directly write a disc image or not.
In summary, in your current position, you're almost certainly screwed. |
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rob andrews |
Message #122423, posted by microbits at 01:55, 15/6/2013, in reply to message #122421 |
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Posts: 24
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Hi Ben welcome to the wonderful world of Risc OS
My best advice would be to pack the old girl up not forgetting to take the battery out of the holder,
and keep it safe for the for see-able future it might be worth some money one day.
Then order yourself a raspberry pi with all the extras you need to get yourself a full working system with the money you would have to spend on fixing up the 440, then you can join the Risc OS main stream and enjoy the system on up to date
hardware. |
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Daniel Jameson |
Message #122424, posted by danielj at 06:18, 15/6/2013, in reply to message #122423 |
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Posts: 7
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That said there is a joy in running an old machine... Horses for courses and all that.
Hello Ben 
As Rob said, sorting the battery out is the first thing you should do.
New-Old-Stock RiscOS 3.1 can be had from CJE Micros for a tenner - http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/micros/prices/categories/upgrades.shtml#prerpc
Once you've got 3.1 you can read dos discs (720k) - HD floppies don't play too nicely with DD drives like the one in the A440, so if you can get hold of some of those it would be preferable. I have a hazy recollection of someone managing to get an HD drive in an early Arc but can't think where it was described off the top of my head.
Best method for getting things on and off is to pick up an EtherLan podule (10Base T)and use ethernet. Additionally an IDE podule will mean you can use a compact flash or SD adaptor for solid state HD drive storage which will be more reliable than the 25+ year old 20MB unit!
Once you've got your A440 networked you'll find it'll work seamlessly for file shares with a Raspberry Pi running RiscOS (I find this a pretty good method for getting things on and off) - you can also run an FTP server on a PC and use !FTPc to grab files.
There are lots of people with lots of experience of the older RiscOS machines over on stardot (http://www.stardot.org), and Paul Vernon's website has lots of useful information:
http://www.retro-kit.co.uk/page.cfm/content/Acorn-Archimedes-A410-1/
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Jon Abbott |
Message #122425, posted by sirbod at 06:38, 15/6/2013, in reply to message #122421 |
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Posts: 563
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As Martin has pointed out, an external USB floppy can't be used to write ADFFS native formats. If you can't get an internal floppy (and use OmniFlop), your options are:
1. Purchase a Kryflux and use it to write ADF files to floppy.
2. Purchase a NIC for the A440 and use FTP to take ADF images across and use ADFFS to mount them. Getting the FTP software on the machine will however still be an issue.
Unfortunately both options are over £50, for option 2 contact CJE Micros who I believe have one in stock. If asked nicely they may even supply a floppy with FTP on 
RISC OS 3.1 ROM's do appear on eBay quite regularly, it may be cheaper to purchase a dead Arc or one of the less preferred machines such as an A4000, and extract the ROM's. However, there's a catch. I believe on the A440 you also need a ROM carrier board, which are around £30, again available from CJE.
On the plus side, if you're prepared to spend around £100, you've got an ideal machine for playing legacy games.
With regard to getting games themselves, there are plenty of cheap originals on eBay and some ZIP's on the Acorn Arcade. At JASPP, we're gearing up to start releasing floppy images of games we've acquired the rights too and will make an announcement on here nearer the time. |
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Xavier Louis Tardy |
Message #122426, posted by Zarchos at 07:02, 15/6/2013, in reply to message #122421 |
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Posts: 47
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Good morning and welcome !
If you want to get some software from the net and transfer them to your Archie, here is what I think is the best for you to do :
- upgrade to RISC OS 3.1
CJE Micros has some RISC OS 3.1 ROMs, and they also sometimes pop up on Ebay (btw whatever you buy from Ebay, if sold without notices, will be documented on the excellent Chris Why's Acorn pages at acorn.chriswhy.co.uk )
For RISC OS 3.1 it's important to know which jumpers to reconfigure on the Archie motherboard.
To transfer files from the Net to your Archie :
* Buy a USB ZIP drive for your PC
* Buy an IDE or SCSI expansion board (podule) for your Archie and either an IDE or SCSI ZIP drive.
When you want to tranfer files (they always are archives): download them with your PC, copy them onto your USB ZIP drive, and then unpack them on your Archie.
It's very important you have a copy on your Archie of the following software :
!Packdir by John Kortink ( from http://web.inter.nl.net/users/J.Kortink/home/software/packdir/ )
!SparkFS and SparkPlug (they are available easily, and most of the time downloable from the sites offering software to download. It'll be an executable file (you must change its filetype to 'Absolute' which will unzip on your Archie, once you've double clicked on it).
Always unpack packed software with these Archie software, and never on the PC.
Remember to filetype them 'Archive'.
Please note also to use the ZIP disks on both machines you must format them on the Archie, selecting DOS format.
Hope this helps.
PS : Unfortunately I can't tell you which Archie SCSI expansion boards handle removable devices like the ZIP drive, and which don't.
You'll have to read the documentation on Chris Why's website, or ask the seller, or ask people here.
PS2 : I advise you to have a look here :
http://ftp.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/systems/acorn/riscos/
PS3 : On your Archie you can't use a parallel port ZIP drive, and that's a pity. (these machines, like the A3000, A310 and I think the A540, haven't got a bidirectional parallel port, necessary for the parallel port ZIP drive)
[Edited by Zarchos at 08:25, 15/6/2013] |
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rob andrews |
Message #122427, posted by microbits at 07:23, 15/6/2013, in reply to message #122426 |
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Like i said in my first post the cost of the upgrades ie Roms, Carrier board, memc1a upgrade,
Network card,video upgrade to use VGA at mode 31,32
ARM 3 the list goes on and on, will cost more than a working system using a PI if you want to run games then run ArcEm this come with a free copy of Risc OS 3.1.
Get your self into the 21 century |
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Xavier Louis Tardy |
Message #122428, posted by Zarchos at 07:27, 15/6/2013, in reply to message #122427 |
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Posts: 47
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Like i said in my first post the cost of the upgrades ie Roms, Carrier board, memc1a upgrade,
Network card,video upgrade to use VGA at mode 31,32
ARM 3 the list goes on and on, will cost more than a working system using a PI if you want to run games then run ArcEm this come with a free copy of Risc OS 3.1.
Get your self into the 21 century And ignore the joy of retro computing or retro gaming ?
AFAIC I couldn't play Chocks Away, watch demos, or listen to a Tracker module on anything else than a real Archie ...
All in all my solution shouldn't cost more than 50 quids including postage.
PS : The OP already owns a monitor, and I'm not sure MEMC1A is needed for RISC OS 3.1, I think it's only necessary if you want to upgrade from ARM2 to ARM3.
[Edited by Zarchos at 08:49, 15/6/2013] |
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Xavier Louis Tardy |
Message #122429, posted by Zarchos at 07:55, 15/6/2013, in reply to message #122422 |
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Posts: 47
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OK. First, the basics:
According to this, RISC OS 2 can't read DOS format floppies. This means floppy discs as a method of transfer are out.
You could upgrade the machine to RISC OS 3.1, but to do that you'd need to source a new set of ROMs and fit them yourself. RO3.1 can read DOS floppies.
A440 hardware doesn't support high-density discs, so any format larger than 800KB is out.
USB floppy drives are physically unable to access Acorn formatted floppies (something technical to do with the sector numbering). I'm not sure if this means you would be unable to use one to directly write a disc image or not.
In summary, in your current position, you're almost certainly screwed. On a PC USB floppy drive can only handle HD disks (1,44 Mbytes), they can't handle the 720 Kbytes low density format, which RISC OS 3.1 could read on an A440...so yes you're screwed if you want to use floppies. |
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rob andrews |
Message #122430, posted by microbits at 09:19, 15/6/2013, in reply to message #122429 |
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Posts: 24
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Look I am not saying that the 440 at 4 MGz is no good just that to it is not cost effective.
I know more than most I ran an Acorn centre of technology for 15 years., the clue is in the name.
So Ben spends all his hard cash on an old machine to get it up to spec then he has a power supply problem because it cannot handle the extra load of all kit.
There are no problems with transfers from PC to Pi you can also run Linux and android.
They are easy to set up SD cards are cheap.
If he wants to run Retro games then the 440 is more than up to it in its current spec without any problem. |
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Daniel Jameson |
Message #122431, posted by danielj at 09:54, 15/6/2013, in reply to message #122430 |
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Posts: 7
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Surely "cost effective" is down to what you want the machine for? I've spent substantially more getting my A3020 up to scratch than I have on my Raspberry Pi. I get substantially more enjoyment from tinkering with the A3020 though. I think the issue the OP was having was getting things onto and off of it though - hence the recommendations about ethernet/IDE interfaces etc. IDE+SD would put substantially less load on the PSU than a 1980s 20MB drive 
FWIW ArcEm on the Pi certainly isn't up to speed for many things (pacmania is definitely slow on it) - and it's quite frankly just not the same as using the original hardware
d. |
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Ben Clark |
Message #122432, posted by GreenyRepublic at 09:59, 15/6/2013, in reply to message #122424 |
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Hey everyone, thank you very much for your replies and advice. Bit of a letdown to hear that my options are so limited, but I didn't have huge expectations, and I think it's still great to have an old thing like this kicking about.
However, I have a couple more questions:
1. Daniel linked me to a hardware site that sells RISC OS 3.1 ROMS. Are these in a floppy disk format, or are these an internal bit of hardware? If they're the latter, are there any other modifications I'll have to make in order to get it working?
2. If I end up storing this thing away for the foreseeable future, what's the correct procedure for removing the battery? I assume that you're referring to something equivalent to a CMOS battery?
Thanks again. |
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Andrew Rawnsley |
Message #122433, posted by arawnsley at 11:05, 15/6/2013, in reply to message #122432 |
R-Comp chap
Posts: 600
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Just a quick note that Richard Brown at Orpheus internet http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/ commented to me yesterday that he had some brand new, boxed RO 3.1 roms looking for a home. He offered them to me and I couldn't really see any use for them at the time (we don't do much Arch era stuff), but if you want to give him a call, I'm sure he'd be very happy to find a welcome home for them.
The ROMs are physical chips that plug into the computer. |
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rob andrews |
Message #122434, posted by microbits at 13:14, 15/6/2013, in reply to message #122433 |
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don't forget you need a carrier board for the rom chips in a 440 the chip are on the right hand side of the board from the front, behind the podule plug. |
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David Holden |
Message #122435, posted by apdl at 11:25, 16/6/2013, in reply to message #122434 |
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don't forget you need a carrier board for the rom chips in a 440 the chip are on the right hand side of the board from the front, behind the podule plug. Having just seen this thread I'm coming a bit late but so far no-one has asked the most important question. Is it an A440 or an A440/1? If the former you need the carrier board to install 3.1 ROMs, if the latter you don't.
I've got some ROMs and also (I think) a carrier board.
The original keyboards on these are prone to giving problems. They use a bit of tinfoil stuck to a piece of foam on the back of the key to bridge the contacts and the foam pad tends to disintegrate into dust on the earlier ones. A really fiddly PITA to repair and, of course, the keyboard is a special Acorn one not a PS2 as on the later models.
I would advise against spending too much on one of these old machines. They're really only of interest to enthusiasts or collectors because of their limitations. A much better starting point if you want to play old games would be an A3020, A4000 or A5000. Longer lasting keyboards, built in HD interface, faster, and better with VGA monitors. |
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Paul Vernon |
Message #122436, posted by PaulV at 20:42, 16/6/2013, in reply to message #122435 |
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and better with VGA monitors. As someone else has mentioned. You can upgrade the A400 series with a VIDC Enhancer, at which point, all the modes available to an A5000 become available on the older machines too. Even with RISC OS 2 and an extra mode definition file 
My last design of VIDC Enhancer allows you to add the standard clock speeds of later Acorn machines (like the A5000) and add an additional clock to over clock the video hardware for even higher resolutions than the A5000 can achieve.
http://www.retro-kit.co.uk/Ultra-VIDC-Enhancer/
Paul |
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Chris Evans |
Message #122437, posted by CJE at 12:49, 17/6/2013, in reply to message #122435 |
CJE Micros chap
Posts: 228
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RISC OS 3.1 ROMS are available for 10GBP inc post from us at:
http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/micros/individual/newprodpages/prodinfo.php?prodcode=ACO-3_1ROMS
If on the front of the computer it does not say A440/1 but plain A440 you will also need a carrier (it has three wires that need soldered) see: http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/micros/individual/newprodpages/prodinfo.php?prodcode=ACO-3_1CB |
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Ben Clark |
Message #122438, posted by GreenyRepublic at 15:48, 17/6/2013, in reply to message #122437 |
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It's a bog-standard 440 by the looks of it, though I'm prepared to start soldering things if it isn't a massively complex and risky job. I'll keep you guys posted if I decide to go through with it, thank you again for your help! |
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The Icon Bar: General: Recently inherited an Archimedes 440 - What Do. | |
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