Where is the 32 bit OS?
Why are they bundling ANT *free* with all new copies of RISC OS?
Why are they charging for bug fixes and software currently available PD/Freeware?
Why have they not been booted out on their backsides for going against established companies and anti competative behavior?

Has ROS Ltd become the new Microsod?

Where is the 32 bit OS?

Why are they bundling ANT *free* with all new copies of RISC OS?

Why are they charging for bug fixes and software currently available PD/Freeware?

Why have they not been booted out on their backsides for going against established companies and anti competative behavior?

Has ROS Ltd become the new Microsod?

Why are they bundling ANT *free* with all new copies of RISC OS?

Copying Microshaft?

I think the bundling of the Ant suite is a BAD idea and is not needed.
All that was needed was a decent Internet connection package.
This should have been included with RO4 and would have been if certain people had had their way.

I also believe that it will steal many sales of both the existing Web browsers and Email packages.

Marcel and Fresco my not be as good as the rest, but if they are free, then people like my father will use them rather than pay for alternatives.

Why are they charging for bug fixes and software currently available PD/Freeware?

Make money for nothing.

I think it's a bit more than that, but my hopes aren't that high anymore though.

Where is the 32 bit OS?

Too expensive to develop. That's not something Microsoft ever had to deal with.

Why are they bundling ANT *free* with all new copies of RISC OS?

Because most of their customers asked for internet software as standard in RISC OS (see their questionaire results).

Why are they charging for bug fixes and software currently available PD/Freeware?

They're not. If bug fixes and pd is being supplied (I'm not sure what you're referring to though), then it's incidental to the new things they are charging for, and may well be worth the money to some people.

Has ROS Ltd become the new Microsod?

Hardly. Integrating essential compents that their customers want doesn't make them Microsoft.

Why are they bundling ANT *free* with all new copies of RISC OS?
Because most of their customers asked for internet software as standard in RISC OS (see their questionaire result
s).

They already had enough dependable software available from other sources which could have been used.

The cynics amongst us would also point out that rumours of the ANT deal were going around *before* the questionaire
appeared. Strange how they got the right results from their survey.

Why are they bundling ANT *free* with all new copies of RISC OS?

Because most of their customers asked for internet software as standard in RISC OS (see their questionaire results).

Okay. Why are they not bundling something reliable with OS 4? You know, stuff which *works* and doesn't take down the machine.

Why are they charging for bug fixes and software currently available PD/Freeware?

They're not. If bug fixes and pd is being supplied (I'm not sure what you're referring to though), then it's incidental to the new things they are charging for, and may well be worth the money to some people.

Hardly new things - more things already supplied by other vendors. Hmm, more anti-competative behavior?

Has ROS Ltd become the new Microsod?

Hardly. Integrating essential compents that their customers want doesn't make them Microsoft.

ANT is not essential. Bug fixes are - but why should I have to pay for something to be fixed when it shouldn't be broken in the first place?

Okay. Why are they not bundling something reliable with OS 4? You know, stuff which *works* and doesn't take down the machine.

They _will_ be fixing the suite (so it presumably doesn't take the machine down). They chose it because it's the only thing suitable. Fresco and Marcel and the only decent browser and email client available on RISC OS that _can_ be bundled. The rest are actively sold by their developers (Oregano, Messenger etc.), unavailable (Browse) or simply not uptodate enough to be any worth to ROLs customers (the freeware browser, I forget it's name).
If you have Marcel and Fresco, you may as well use the whole suite. That lets you do what ever you want with the source code and improve/intergrate it properly. Simply bundling some sort of tied together Socketeer/popstar/newshound thing would be pointless.

it's incidental to the new things they are charging for, and may well be worth the money to some people.

Hardly new things - more things already supplied by other vendors. Hmm, more anti-competative behavior?

CDFS I'm not sure about, but does the third party thing do _all_ that the Select version will?
I'm not aware of anything that does the filer improvements.
Nothing allows ChangeFSI or Paint to deal with PNGs. Nothing allows JPEG export from Paint.
Does anything allow networked printers on RISC OS? How much does it cost?
What gives you DHCP and Appletalk support?
What lets you choose the boot device?
What gives you the various speed ups we can expect with Select?
I could go on, but in short, you're being obtuse when it comes to reading that Select feature list.

Integrating essential compents that their customers want doesn't make them Microsoft.

ANT is not essential. Bug fixes are - but why should I have to pay for something to be fixed when it shouldn't be broken in the first place?

Using the ANTsuite is the only way ROL can satisfy customer demand for internet software as standard. The internet software is essential, ergo so is the ANTsuite.
I count five fixes included in Select, none of them which are going to have any impact on me (ie. I never encounted the problems in the first place to desire a fix).

Have you _ever_ bought or used an application that was 100% bug free? Have you ever bought or downloaded an upgrade for software? If so, why are you suddenly now so dismayed about ROL charging for a new version of RISC OS that happens also to fix five minor bugs along the way?

They _will_ be fixing the suite (so it presumably doesn't take the machine down). They chose it because it's the only thing suitable. Fresco and Marcel and the only decent browser and email client available on RISC OS that _can_ be bundled. The rest are actively sold by their developers (Oregano, Messenger etc.), unavailable (Browse) or simply not uptodate enough to be any worth to ROLs customers (the freeware browser, I forget it's name).
If you have Marcel and Fresco, you may as well use the whole suite. That lets you do what ever you want with the source code and improve/intergrate it properly. Simply bundling some sort of tied together Socketeer/popstar/newshound thing would be pointless.

Trouble is, RISCOS Ltd. can't bundle Fresco with Marcel since they didn't get the browser with the suite so. They're allowed to sell it but have no access to the sources so this argument falls a bit on its face! As for rest of the suite maybe Marcel will be useful but other e-mail clients can easily take its place.
The connection part is essential though!

Fresco and Marcel and the only decent browser and email client available on RISC OS that _can_ be bundled.

With resect, that is complete crap. What would be wrong with them approaching RComp and bundling something which is actively developed, reliable, user friendly and above all is half decent.

The problem is, RComp wouldn't want that. RComp sell their products. ROL don't simply want to bundle something, they want to change and fully intergrate it. They can't do that with software that belongs to other people, that is still being actively developed and sold.

I'm not aware of anything that does the filer improvements.

Big wow - automatically open menus. I think that's already there as part of the config.

<sigh> You haven't read the feature list, have you? http://www.riscos.com/select/index.htm#Features

Nothing allows ChangeFSI or Paint to deal with PNGs. Nothing allows JPEG export from Paint.

PNG2Sprite. Open the save box from Paint and drop it onto CFSI. Oh look, we seem to have demolished that one....

My statement is correct. That there are workarounds is immaterial. Having the functions intergrated will be quicker and more convienient.

Does anything allow networked printers on RISC OS? How much does it cost?

Yes. Look at RComp's website - and it's cheaper.

Can't find any details there. How much cheaper? Remember that price buys you just one feature.

What gives you DHCP and Appletalk support?

dhcp sources took 3 days to get working here, but due to legal restrictions I could not release them. Hardly rocket science.

It may as well be to most of ROLs customers. We're not all programmers, and even those of us who are don't have 3 days to spend getting something working. How long would it take you to get Appletalk working then?

What lets you choose the boot device?

And for 99.999% of users, who will that benefit.

The issue isn't if _you_ find the new features useful, but simply that there _are_ new features! I'm simply showing you that you're not paying for a couple of bug fixes.

What gives you the various speed ups we can expect with Select?

Speed ups? Not seen that mentioned. Sorry, I have, called bug fixes to cludges.

<sigh> Again, try reading the feature list.

ROS Ltd could have done what Clares did (again, a successful RISC OS company) in bundling the best of freeware with a simple installer.

As I said, that would be pointless. They don't want to bundle, they want to integrate. That means they need to (virtually) own the code and be able to do with it what they want.

upgrades have been free or at postage cost (from WSS) who have bothered to respond to my comments.

You've only ever aquired upgrades for something from WSS? ROL have, will, and do supply bug fixes for free via their website. Many software companies release free bugfixes. It's also standard practice to charge for major updates where users get many new features. Acorn did it with RISC OS 3, ROL did it with RISC OS 4.01, Microsoft do it, Apple do it. In short, every commercial OS (and most, if not all commerical applications) have charable updates when (significant) new features arrive.
Again, why are you so upset that ROL should charge for 4.5?

Look at the list again and count the fixes. When I originally went through them, 6 out 10 were fixes.

Right. You look, and you'll find it's actually 3 out of 37 changes are bug fixes (that's not counting each individual filer improvement).

point taken :-)

With resect, that is complete crap. What would be wrong with them approaching RComp and bundling something which is actively developed, reliable, user friendly and above all is half decent.

The problem is, RComp wouldn't want that. RComp sell their products. ROL don't simply want to bundle something, they want to change and fully intergrate it. They can't do that with software that belongs to other people, that is still being actively developed and sold.

Okay. You're now telling me that a company would not like to sell it's products ready bundled with an OS? What sort of company would not want that.

For them to "integrate" ANT, they would need to make it an integral part of the OS (much as M$ did with IE) - this would be anticompetative behaviour and possibly land ROS Ltd in court.

<sigh> You haven't read the feature list, have you? http://www.riscos.com/select/index.htm#Features

Yes. Many times. Without bias. You may like to try it.

PNG2Sprite. Open the save box from Paint and drop it onto CFSI. Oh look, we seem to have demolished that one....

My statement is correct. That there are workarounds is immaterial. Having the functions intergrated will be quicker and more convienient.

Right. Who's up for paying 105 quid for almost 2 seconds worth of convienience? They are also not workarounds. A workaround is a method to circumvent a bug (sorry, feature ;-)) - not an application which fulfills a need.

Yes. Look at RComp's website - and it's cheaper.

Can't find any details there. How much cheaper? Remember that price buys you just one feature.

A fair bit cheaper. Okay, it buys one feature, but is a reliable feature, not some piece of beta-ware. It's also fully supported.

dhcp sources took 3 days to get working here, but due to legal restrictions I could not release them. Hardly rocket science.

It may as well be to most of ROLs customers. We're not all programmers, and even those of us who are don't have 3 days to spend getting something working. How long would it take you to get Appletalk working then?

Dunno - not seen the sources.

And for 99.999% of users, who will that benefit.

The issue isn't if _you_ find the new features useful, but simply that there _are_ new features!

But completely useless features for the majority of users!

Speed ups? Not seen that mentioned. Sorry, I have, called bug fixes to cludges.

<sigh> Again, try reading the feature list.

I would if it was not so bloody depressing.

As I said, that would be pointless. They don't want to bundle, they want to integrate. That means they need to (virtually) own the code and be able to do with it what they want.

Except for the browser. Oh dear, a full internet suite without a decent browser. Remember, there are no g/tees that the browser will *ever* be updated.

[quote[

upgrades have been free or at postage cost (from WSS) who have bothered to respond to my comments.

You've only ever aquired upgrades for something from WSS? ROL have, will, and do supply bug fixes for free via their website.

Nope. Clares, Castle, RComp, RISCOS Ltd...

Many software companies release free bugfixes.

Except for one I could mention....

It's also standard practice to charge for major updates where users get many new features. Acorn did it with RISC OS 3, ROL did it with RISC OS 4.01, Microsoft do it, Apple do it. In short, every commercial OS (and most, if not all commerical applications) have charable updates when (significant) new features arrive.

You're quite correct. I had no objection paying however many times I did for OS 3.7 to 4. It was a good upgrade. OS 4.02 to whatever ROS Ltd call Select is not an OS upgrade. It's just additional modules which may or maynot work properly. Until the OS is formally released, it's beta and so is not an upgrade.

Again, why are you so upset that ROL should charge for 4.5?

It's not an upgrade. It's additional software which would have previously been done as freeware/shareware (for the most part). It also does nothing to show where the money goes to the future of the platform. I don't go in for subsidising companies just because they've not done anything with their product for 2 years.

Look at the list again and count the fixes. When I originally went through them, 6 out 10 were fixes.

Right. You look, and you'll find it's actually 3 out of 37 changes are bug fixes (that's not counting each individual filer improvement).

Take off the rose tinted glasses, take a deep breath, put on the normal "broad light of day" glasses and look again

Right. You look, and you'll find it's actually 3 out of 37 changes are bug fixes (that's not counting each individual filer improvement).

Take off the rose tinted glasses, take a deep breath, put on the normal "broad light of day" glasses and look again

Sorry, this isn't a subjective thing. There are 37 changes listed, three of them bug fixes. This is not my opinion, rather a simple fact. A change of glasses can make no differece. Once again, I'm saying you're not simply paying for bug fixes.

Whether _you_ think the changes are worthwhile is an entirely different issue. I think they are, and by buying into Select this year, I can look forward to even better features next year. As long as ROL stays alive that is... which needs you (people) to buy into Select as well...

For them to "integrate" ANT, they would need to make it an integral part of the OS (much as M$ did with IE) - this would be anticompetative behaviour and possibly land ROS Ltd in court.

Windows has 'net connection software built in. MacOS has 'net connection software built in. ROLs customers want 'net connection software built in. ROL says it will build in 'net connection software, and you're complaining.
It's about as anticompetative as including !Paint with RISC OS. People use Paint to do the sort of things that Photodesk is infinitely more suited to (getting airbrush effects, for instance). They use Paint because it's free. Photodesk Ltd could sell many more copies of Photodesk if !Paint wasn't supplied with RISC OS. But !Paint is an essential basic. Just as 'net connection software should be.
Should Photodesk Ltd. be asked to bundle (a cut down) Photodesk with RISC OS? No, because then Photodesk Ltd. make money while Clares (who make Compo iirc) suffer. RISC OS needs independent software of a basic level, allowing all 3rd party software writers to compete on an equal level.

Except for the browser. Oh dear, a full internet suite without a decent browser. Remember, there are no g/tees that the browser will *ever* be updated.

But that's ok, we get a basic browser built in, allowing Oregano and anything else to compete. The main issue, though, is what else could RISC OS have done? Write their own browser from scratch? Including an un-updated Fresco is the best of all possible options.

Until the OS is formally released, it's beta and so is not an upgrade.

That's not how Select works. Yes, first time round it's beta, then with the next CD you get new beta features and the previous stuff becomes 'gold' or whatever you want to call it. So, with the second CD, are you saying _then_ it all suddenly becomes an upgrade?

It's not an upgrade. It's additional software which would have previously been done as freeware/shareware (for the most part).

Oh please. You can say that about just about any sofware upgrade release. Until MacOSX, MacOS updates could easily be described as above. Until WindowsXP, Windows9x updates could be described as above. Many of the feature improvements of RISC OS 2-3 and 3-4 could be described as above.

Select doesn't give you a 32bit OS, it doesn't give hardware independence, it doesn't give pre-emptive multitasking, it doesn't give... etc. It isn't a huge new rewrite of the OS. Maybe that's why you're so unhappy, but at least it's something useful and keeps the platform alive.

I don't give a damn about Select or 4.5, to me they are a hopeless waste of cash for the price they are. This blackmail crap that floats around, "If you don't buy then you are helping the market to fail etc", well sorry but the market is already in disarray because the head honcho himself has no enthusiasm in the market and appears to want to milk the users dry. Sorry, that's my perspective and many share it. It's a pity those rose-tinted glasses are so frequent, I know a few who have opened their eyes.

No 32-bit? What do you want that for, nothing will work etc etc, sure little will work but that's how you advance systems.

I am sick of this thread, maybe that comes across.

IMHO of course.

Sorry, this isn't a subjective thing. There are 37 changes listed, three of them bug fixes. This is not my opinion, rather a simple fact. A change of glasses can make no differece. Once again, I'm saying you're not simply paying for bug fixes.

Correct. You're paying for beta software. Actually, you're paying for the posibility of beta software.

Whether _you_ think the changes are worthwhile is an entirely different issue. I think they are, and by buying into Select this year, I can look forward to even better features next year. As long as ROL stays alive that is... which needs you (people) to buy into Select as well...

Good luck. ROL staying alive is not reason enough to buy into it. Survival and progression of the platform would make me buy into it - not financing a company who would have fallen elsewhere, but as there are people out there who panic buy (ROS Ltd need cardboard boxes and will go under without them, people panic and buy them for ROS Ltd without a thought what the boxes are for), it's sad, they will buy through a misguided belief that they will get something.

Wake up.

Select will not move us on. It will not get us 32 bit. It will not help to keep the platform alive - if anything, it's more likely to stagnate than help. If you cannot see this, I suggest looking objectively.

Fact : number of products BY ROS Ltd : 1
number of free patches to OS 4 : 5
number of modules made by ROS : 1

Everything else has been Pace. To me, 7 items in 2 years is complete tosh and it doesn't suprise me that ROS Ltd have money problems. If you think the Select scheme will do anything to help (other than giving ROS Ltd money), you're in for a rude awakening.

Sorry, this isn't a subjective thing. There are 37 changes listed, three of them bug fixes. This is not my opinion, rather a simple fact. A change of glasses can make no differece. Once again, I'm saying you're not simply paying for bug fixes.

Correct. You're paying for beta software. Actually, you're paying for the posibility of beta software.

Whether _you_ think the changes are worthwhile is an entirely different issue. I think they are, and by buying into Select this year, I can look forward to even better features next year. As long as ROL stays alive that is... which needs you (people) to buy into Select as well...

Good luck. ROL staying alive is not reason enough to buy into it. Survival and progression of the platform would make me buy into it - not financing a company who would have fallen elsewhere, but as there are people out there who panic buy (ROS Ltd need cardboard boxes and will go under without them, people panic and buy them for ROS Ltd without a thought what the boxes are for), it's sad, they will buy through a misguided belief that they will get something.

Wake up.

Select will not move us on. It will not get us 32 bit. It will not help to keep the platform alive - if anything, it's more likely to stagnate than help. If you cannot see this, I suggest looking objectively.

Fact : number of products BY ROS Ltd : 1
number of free patches to OS 4 : 5
number of modules made by ROS : 1

Everything else has been Pace. To me, 7 items in 2 years is complete tosh and it doesn't suprise me that ROS Ltd have money problems. If you think the Select scheme will do anything to help (other than giving ROS Ltd money), you're in for a rude awakening.

dhcp sources took 3 days to get working here, but due to legal restrictions I could not release them. Hardly rocket science.

OK - I'll bite ...

"legal restrictions" ?

Tact and enthusiasm isn't in it. I know of zero developers who are okay with the way ROL management is working. Unfortunately non-developers don't see this, all they see is the stuff that's supposedly getting done.

It's sucking the market down, I haven't brought the VOTI site down for a laugh, I have brought it down due to the number of developers who are now so yanked off but don't name themselves because they have businesses to try and run.

Unfortunately getting shareholders to see the mess that *their* market is in seems difficult and the word "bias" may have a lot to do with it.

A few people may call me a cynic, my advice to them is to look on the other side of the coin, you'll see the gaping holes.

Then they're dopey as well - if they think the ship is sinking then jump now and make a fresh start.

Jump where and with what?

Jump where and with what?

Well that's entirely up to them. All I'm saying is that there's no point waiting for the end to come to you if you can do something about it. As far as the IT industry goes, well, I use Windows and Linux on a daily basis - far more than RISC OS (due to work) and the "dark side" isn't that dark.

If that's too much to stomach, or not feasible, and the RISC OS market does go under, then perhaps a change of career is the only alternative.

Of course all this rather depends on whether they think RISC OS really is sinking.

When Botham went back in the ranks, he regained his happiness and the team started winning again.

h'mm ...

Reading what Chris and Nathan have to say reminds me of a TV programme on Ian Botham I saw the other day.
Great cricketer.
Lousy captain.
Remind you of anyone at ROL?

When Botham went back in the ranks, he regained his happiness and the team started winning again.

h'mm ...

Since I don't follow cricket, would it be true if I said when Botham left it got a lot better?

Reading what Chris and Nathan have to say reminds me of a TV programme on Ian Botham I saw the other day.
Great cricketer.
Lousy captain.
Remind you of anyone at ROL?

When Botham went back in the ranks, he regained his happiness and the team started winning again.

h'mm ...

Since I don't follow cricket, would it be true if I said when Botham left it got a lot better?

Specifically, when he resigned the captaincy it got a lot better. Mike Brearley took over and immediately got him performing his magic again. When he eventually left the field it was a sad day for all.

Anybody for Mike Brearley?

Can you tell us any more? What do Pace think of ROL?

If Nathan is referring to the meeting I think he is then no he probably can't tell you anymore. However it's worth remembering from this little comment that any comments Nathan makes on state of the market are not just based on hearsay and his own thoughts.

As has been mentioned before, some of the shareholders just let the management get on with it and aren't interested in what goes on, so a prod with a large stick might be useful

Then those shareholders are stupid because they're throwing money away. Given that this is the case they obviously they have too much of it and maybe they could throw some of it at developers who need a reason to continue

There are others that think the sun shines out of the managements backside and believe everything they are told, and others that have their own agenda.

Everyone has their own agenda - it's just that some are more concerned for the welfare of the market as a whole than others.

And quite a few that have just written off the money and are waiting for the leaking ship to finally sink

Then they're dopey as well - if they think the ship is sinking then jump now and make a fresh start.

I went to Pace and know what they have and managed to find out interesting information. The problem for the market is ROL. Remember the phrase, "Immature students", says it all really.

Can you tell us any more? What do Pace think of ROL?

Unfortunately getting shareholders to see the mess that *their* market is in seems difficult and the word "bias" may have a lot to do with it.

As has been mentioned before, some of the shareholders just let the management get on with it and aren't interested in what goes on, so a prod with a large stick might be useful

There are others that think the sun shines out of the managements backside and believe everything they are told, and others that have their own agenda.
And quite a few that have just written off the money and are waiting for the leaking ship to finally sink

But they can all be overruled by the A or B shareholders, so those are the people to sort out first.......

ANT Suite has been fixed and looks good. I'm glad there's competition cos it means us punters get a better deal. ROL aren't stressing that you have to use ANT Suite- it's easy enough to turn it off for chrissakes. I don't have the time to list everything- it's all too much.

ROL have been working, working so damn hard Paul that you're so far off the mark it's ludicrous. So despite what a few people are going on about, I really don't care anymore. Bring on CD 2..

Chris @ drobe feeling oh so very happy indeed

As for 32bit being too expensive? As someone else mentioned, it's not going to get cheaper if it's delayed. It HAS to be done.

dhcp sources took 3 days to get working here, but due to legal restrictions I could not release them. Hardly rocket science.

I'm curious - when you say 3 days to get working I assume this was actually working (not just compiled) and fully integrated into the RISC OS network stack.

This isn't a slight at you Paul - just that from comments I've read by various people who work for Pace providing DHCP actually required alterations to the current RISC OS networking system in order to integrate it properly. This would suggest you have the appropriate source code for the relevant sections of RISC OS.

In the past I have looked at DHCP - sources and the RFCs - with porting in mind. I decided against it for two mains reasons. Firstly I was told by a 3rd party that it was in hand and secondly I decided I didn't have access to the necessary documentation and parts of RISC OS that I'd need to make it work properly.

So did it really just compile and run (with some tweaks)? I'm rather confused by various comments made by certain parties (and I don't claim to be RISC OS expert )

(can people in this thread please take the time to quote properly)

Okay. Why are they not bundling something reliable with OS 4? You know, stuff which *works* and doesn't take down the machine.

They _will_ be fixing the suite (so it presumably doesn't take the machine down). They chose it because it's the only thing suitable. Fresco and Marcel and the only decent browser and email client available on RISC OS that _can_ be bundled.

With resect, that is complete crap. What would be wrong with them approaching RComp and bundling something which is actively developed, reliable, user friendly and above all is half decent.

ROS obtained ANT for a song and for whatever reason (there were rumours of a bust up when Andrew Rawnsley "left" decided that bundling a pile of tat with OS 4 was a good way of trying to kill off someone who is actually still successful in the RISC OS market.

it's incidental to the new things they are charging for, and may well be worth the money to some people.

Hardly new things - more things already supplied by other vendors. Hmm, more anti-competative behavior?

CDFS I'm not sure about, but does the third party thing do _all_ that the Select version will?

CDROMFS will do *more* than what ROS are bundling. From what I have been told, the version of CDFS being sold as part of Select was the version we should have had when OS 4 was launched.

I'm not aware of anything that does the filer improvements.

Big wow - automatically open menus. I think that's already there as part of the config.

Nothing allows ChangeFSI or Paint to deal with PNGs. Nothing allows JPEG export from Paint.

PNG2Sprite. Open the save box from Paint and drop it onto CFSI. Oh look, we seem to have demolished that one....

Does anything allow networked printers on RISC OS? How much does it cost?

Yes. Look at RComp's website - and it's cheaper.

What gives you DHCP and Appletalk support?

dhcp sources took 3 days to get working here, but due to legal restrictions I could not release them. Hardly rocket science.

What lets you choose the boot device?

And for 99.999% of users, who will that benefit.

What gives you the various speed ups we can expect with Select?

Speed ups? Not seen that mentioned. Sorry, I have, called bug fixes to cludges.

I could go on, but in short, you're being obtuse when it comes to reading that Select feature list.

No, I'm reading it with my eyes open and seeing what is actually being offered and not what the rose tinted glasses some RISC OS users decided to use.

Integrating essential compents that their customers want doesn't make them Microsoft.

ANT is not essential. Bug fixes are - but why should I have to pay for something to be fixed when it shouldn't be broken in the first place?

Using the ANTsuite is the only way ROL can satisfy customer demand for internet software as standard. The internet software is essential, ergo so is the ANTsuite.

Rubbish. ROS Ltd could have done what Clares did (again, a successful RISC OS company) in bundling the best of freeware with a simple installer. ANT suite is hoplessly out of date.

Have you _ever_ bought or used an application that was 100% bug free? Have you ever bought or downloaded an upgrade for software? If so, why are you suddenly now so dismayed about ROL charging for a new version of RISC OS that happens also to fix five minor bugs along the way?

I've never bought anything bug free. I've written plenty of software bug free, but not bought any bug free. However, upgrades have been free or at postage cost (from WSS) who have bothered to respond to my comments.

Look at the list again and count the fixes. When I originally went through them, 6 out 10 were fixes.